This is hitting the nail on the head: “Of course the problem is not that women only write about women stuff. But the perception that women write for women and men write for everyone is foundational to these readership discrepancies.” 👏 And it’s the same bias for race too.
Appreciate this ongoing noodling of the issue, Sara! Aligned, I was listening to (another) podcast recently about “are men ok/what is wrong with men?” where they mostly meant cis/het white men and it has all been making me a bit frustrated that these conversations seem to be leading us in a circle back to these same men being at the center? I feel frustrated that while the problem seems important to identify that it’s hard to talk about it without feeling like we’re still putting this demographic at the center. Discussions like yours are nuanced in that, they’re hoping to encourage the centering -or at least exposure- (through reading) to other identities but we’re still having to focus on the dominant demographic in the process. It makes me feel a little batty 😵💫 I don’t really have a question, and I definitely don’t have an answer. Maybe I just dream of a world where we don’t have to constantly consider the white cishet male of it all???
Oh I am right there with you! Especially in the wake of the election all of the "how can we reach white men?" thinkpieces drive me nuts. I think what's interesting about this current moment of conversation is that even within the centering there's finally a sense that cis/het white men don't represent the default way of being human. And maybe that's a tiny bit of progress? I don't know! But yes, completely agree that I would like to not think about this anymore!!
This is such a complex issue. One aspect not much discussed is which books by women men do read and why? What is the correlation between men reading a book by a woman and that book being considered literary or serious or worthy of an award? Is there pressure on women writers to try to attract male readers, and does that shift how they write? When I was young chances of women authors being taken seriously by male readers, and not just white cis/het but pretty much any men at all, was slim. Joan Didion. Susan Sontag. It felt to me like they were writing within a deliberate constraint that made their work exempt from the accusation that they wrote for women and it was therefore okay for men to read. I didn't blame them. Straight is the gate. These constraints about what woman-authored books men might read is as narrow as ever yet there is more opportunity to be rewarded for it with prizes, et cetera—the goodies. This worries me about how it shapes women's ambitions. I know this is a sidebar, but it is about what men will deign to read!
YES! Alice, this is such a wonderful point! And I don't think it's a sidebar at all. It's so relevant to the assumption of men as default that even when we know that women are buying and reading the most fiction, women writers may still feel the need to write books that are appealing or palatable to men. Have you read Claire Vaye Watkin's essay "How I learned to stop writing for old white men"? I used to read it with my women in literature class and it gets at so many of these ideas! https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1129-watkins-writing-for-men-20151129-story.html
This is such a fantastic read! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts! My husband and I had a whole conversation about this as we read your piece together. And it has definitely opened my eyes to how I want to guide my two little boys in their reading choices as they grow up.
The comments on that NYT Op-Ed were so depressing. I would like to see an editor or agent’s reply, discussing what the state of the slush pile looks like, and the book buying habits of these young white men whose voices are supposedly repressed. Let me get this straight: they shouldn’t have to be interested in and read the books that are being published; they should be published so we can all read their books? It is mind boggling and I was also livid that the only book by a woman he mentions is THT. Come on!
Ugh yes. I know to never read the comments but I cannot resist and I always come out feeling disgusted. It's ironic that this same group of people makes arguments about how women and authors of color are getting published because of cultural pressures NOT because they're great, but now they want publishing to make sure there are enough straight white men being published so that they feel included. Baffling.
And I wonder too: what quota would satisfy? How would we know, by the number of young white men being published, that the supposed bias has been eliminated from the system? The most interesting comments were the ones that point out these men only want it when women can’t also have it. Once it’s “equal” or heaven forbid biased in a feminine direction and therefore not guaranteed they will succeed and dominate, they lose interest.
This is hitting the nail on the head: “Of course the problem is not that women only write about women stuff. But the perception that women write for women and men write for everyone is foundational to these readership discrepancies.” 👏 And it’s the same bias for race too.
Absolutely true!
Appreciate this ongoing noodling of the issue, Sara! Aligned, I was listening to (another) podcast recently about “are men ok/what is wrong with men?” where they mostly meant cis/het white men and it has all been making me a bit frustrated that these conversations seem to be leading us in a circle back to these same men being at the center? I feel frustrated that while the problem seems important to identify that it’s hard to talk about it without feeling like we’re still putting this demographic at the center. Discussions like yours are nuanced in that, they’re hoping to encourage the centering -or at least exposure- (through reading) to other identities but we’re still having to focus on the dominant demographic in the process. It makes me feel a little batty 😵💫 I don’t really have a question, and I definitely don’t have an answer. Maybe I just dream of a world where we don’t have to constantly consider the white cishet male of it all???
Oh I am right there with you! Especially in the wake of the election all of the "how can we reach white men?" thinkpieces drive me nuts. I think what's interesting about this current moment of conversation is that even within the centering there's finally a sense that cis/het white men don't represent the default way of being human. And maybe that's a tiny bit of progress? I don't know! But yes, completely agree that I would like to not think about this anymore!!
It's so strange that Portnoy's Complaint is considered "universal" while All Fours is "women's fiction."
Exactly this!
I thought of a comparison to Portnoy’s when I read All Fours, too! Thrilled to see someone else noticed this.
This is such a complex issue. One aspect not much discussed is which books by women men do read and why? What is the correlation between men reading a book by a woman and that book being considered literary or serious or worthy of an award? Is there pressure on women writers to try to attract male readers, and does that shift how they write? When I was young chances of women authors being taken seriously by male readers, and not just white cis/het but pretty much any men at all, was slim. Joan Didion. Susan Sontag. It felt to me like they were writing within a deliberate constraint that made their work exempt from the accusation that they wrote for women and it was therefore okay for men to read. I didn't blame them. Straight is the gate. These constraints about what woman-authored books men might read is as narrow as ever yet there is more opportunity to be rewarded for it with prizes, et cetera—the goodies. This worries me about how it shapes women's ambitions. I know this is a sidebar, but it is about what men will deign to read!
YES! Alice, this is such a wonderful point! And I don't think it's a sidebar at all. It's so relevant to the assumption of men as default that even when we know that women are buying and reading the most fiction, women writers may still feel the need to write books that are appealing or palatable to men. Have you read Claire Vaye Watkin's essay "How I learned to stop writing for old white men"? I used to read it with my women in literature class and it gets at so many of these ideas! https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1129-watkins-writing-for-men-20151129-story.html
This is such a fantastic read! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts! My husband and I had a whole conversation about this as we read your piece together. And it has definitely opened my eyes to how I want to guide my two little boys in their reading choices as they grow up.
Thanks, Kaitlin! I'm so glad you enjoyed this one and that it made an impact! Your little ones are in great hands!
All I can add is YES!!!
The comments on that NYT Op-Ed were so depressing. I would like to see an editor or agent’s reply, discussing what the state of the slush pile looks like, and the book buying habits of these young white men whose voices are supposedly repressed. Let me get this straight: they shouldn’t have to be interested in and read the books that are being published; they should be published so we can all read their books? It is mind boggling and I was also livid that the only book by a woman he mentions is THT. Come on!
Ugh yes. I know to never read the comments but I cannot resist and I always come out feeling disgusted. It's ironic that this same group of people makes arguments about how women and authors of color are getting published because of cultural pressures NOT because they're great, but now they want publishing to make sure there are enough straight white men being published so that they feel included. Baffling.
And I wonder too: what quota would satisfy? How would we know, by the number of young white men being published, that the supposed bias has been eliminated from the system? The most interesting comments were the ones that point out these men only want it when women can’t also have it. Once it’s “equal” or heaven forbid biased in a feminine direction and therefore not guaranteed they will succeed and dominate, they lose interest.
Yes!! That is so real.
Thank you for writing this. 💛
Sara I just joined your substack but it keeps telling me I didn’t subscribe.
Can you please check for me…?
My name is Michele Horwitz Thx