I read Dream State and am almost finished with Wild Dark Shore (the audio is fantastic!). I agree with you about the pacing issues in DS, plus I was annoyed that the event that takes place about 160 pages in was revealed in every review/blurb I read. I expected it to be something that took place in the first chapter, not a third of the way through! I absolutely love Wild Dark Shore. The withholding piece doesn't bother me. I am enjoying the layering of perspectives (particularly the kids') and the way information is kind of weaving through them all before finally arriving to the reader.
Yes to the reveals in reviews of DS!! I'm so glad you're enjoy WDS. I'm in the minority here and while I'm not sure I would have loved it either way, I know all of my thinking about POV recently impacted my reading quite a bit.
I've been giving this some thought and I think McConaghy's writing really reflects her background (she has a masters in screenwriting). I personally love the cinematic feel of her writing and the suspense. If a reader is not inclined to like mysteries/thrillers though (her website says that in Wild Dark Shore, she "continues her love of romantic thrillers"), I could see how her books wouldn't work for you.
Side note-- I would love a post from you on mysteries/suspenses that you felt didn't do the whole "withholding information from the reader" thing! I feel like it's very tricky and masterful to accomplish.
So interesting! Yes I think part of it for me is that I’m disinclined to enjoy thrillers and mysteries! But I think your observation about her writing being quite cinematic is actually part of my POV issue. First person narration doesn’t lend itself naturally to a cinematic style—when we watch a film, we’re watching everything from the outside. I appreciate that style of writing, but in this case it added to my feeling that the narration was inauthentic. I’ll have to try to think of a list! I don’t think there’s any mystery where the author isn’t withholding information, but I don’t always feel it like I did here. Off the top of my head THE GOD OF THE WOODS comes to mind! And I think those alternating chapters were in third person close but I’ll need to go back and check!
Great reviews Sara. I rarely recognize POV when I am reading but it definitely plays a huge part in the way we view and understand a story. Thanks for sharing.
Absolutely! I rarely think of it as well but now I'm starting to believe it's one of the single most important craft choices for me as a reader. I need more data points to keep considering, but I'm enjoying thinking it over!
I appreciate this discussion. Rowan and Dom were written in first person, and the kids’ chapters were third person, I think? If so, in light of this discussion, it’s interesting to me…like Rowan and Dom were choosing to withhold info. But the kids didn’t exactly since they’re written in third. (I don’t have it in front of me, so correct me if I’m misremembering!)
I read this with a friend and I remember telling her somewhere in those first 150 pages, that I was starting to feel a little annoyed/toyed with. So I can understand that feeling of manipulation, but I’m not sure I recognized it as tied to POV, which I can appreciate.
The writing kept me in it though. I loved so many themes too - that the world is dark and impermanent, and we love knowing that we will suffer loss one day, and yet we continue to always try, that playing it safe isn’t rewarding, that loving is always worth it. Sometimes it was a little too dark for me, the way such beauty is right next to such brutality and loss, but I also kept finding hope.
Some of the writing on solo parenting and grief was really well done. And also, the last few pages from Rowan’s perspective I thought were beautiful.
So ultimately, I totally see why this was one of Liz’s fav books of the year!! And I loved it as well. The fact that I keep thinking back on it is telling!
That's fair! My bigger issue with the POV is that it is in present tense. Present tense is used to create intimacy and authenticity, so it does not make sense to have characters withholding information in their thoughts if you choose to use present tense. I'm baffled by why so many authors continue to use it. I think it's manipulative because it creates a reading experience that tries to suggest there is NO crafting of the story--it's all just happening. In which case, don't withhold information. It's a cheap trick! And yes at least Fen's chapters were third person but they were the type of close third where it felt like you could sub in "I" for "she," make the verbs agree, and that's all you'd need to do to make it first. I can't remember what POV Orly's were in, but his was the most stream of consciousness so the effect was that of first person whatever pronouns were used. But it is an interesting question as to why she chose to do that...honestly it just felt to me like she wanted to differentiate the chapters a bit. I don't know...I can appreciate what you're saying about the emotions but his book was a casualty of realizing as I was reading that many of the craft choices she makes are big problems for me.
Ok I read Broken Country this week & paid closer attention to the tense because this was 1st person & present tense too. I was instantly thought uh-oh…if she does anything weird, it’s going to irk me. (Because even though I ended up loving WDS, I totally see your point and also did feel manipulated at one point early on WDS but couldn’t put my finger on why!)
Overall, Broken Country was fine. A little predictable, but like a fun vacation book. Nothing that will make me remember it forever. But, there are these few melodramatic instances where as she’s in 1st person present tense, she adds insights that are clearly her speaking with perspective from the future that I think she uses to build tension but just feel very inauthentic!! And it really bothered me and took me out of the story!
I would have noticed those parts even if you hadn’t identified this issue, but I’m not sure I would have recognized why it was bothering me.
This is so interesting, and even though, I could let it wash over me and still immerse myself in WDS, it bothered me more with Broken Country. I love that you helped me to see this.
I had some issues with Wild Dark Shore but I full acknowledge these are things I - with my own personal life experience and world view - brought to the book. I think this is an area of reviewing critically I’ve yet to fully understand. On the one hand I want to be honest about my experience reading the book, on the other I know most people probably wouldn’t have the same experience as me, and is the book working successfully in spite of how I’m interpreting it. In all honesty for me the answer was probably not quite. Nonetheless, I felt so strongly about the other stuff I took issue with that I couldn’t ignore it, even objectively. An interesting dilemma when it comes to reviewing books!!!
I just went and read your review and I completely agree with everything you said (except for me it was not a stay up late read 😂). I also find this to be a fascinating dilemma. In my case, I know my issue with feeling manipulated is something I'm particularly sensitive too BUT I genuinely think some of the POV and withholding issues were actually poor craft 😬 In your case, it's more a thematic issue that you're more sensitive to but I also think you're right that it's objectively an overused, overly simplistic idea so I'm grateful to your noticing for helping me see it too!
Yeah I think it’s much more interesting not to fall into the narrative trope where you immediately attach your female character to a man and children. She had the potential to explore a lot of interesting stuff around reasons, for example, a woman may choose not to have kids BECAUSE of climate change (regardless of whether you agree with that choice or not). But it just felt like an easy way get a romance into the book, and more drama, which on the whole did nothing for me.
PLUS those kids were so wholesome, I’m sorry but I kept comparing them to my 12 and 16 year old niece and nephew who are delightful but also smelly, annoying, obnoxious teenagers who refuse to set the table. Lucky if they agree to eat with you at all.
I have Dream State and was vacillating about reading it…Oprah and super buzzy usually result in me skipping it. Everyone raved about it and I got a large print edition which meant paperback (my preferred reading) but…I had norovirus at my wedding-what a mess! Literally and figuratively!😂It was so long ago, it was still called Cruise Ship Sickness. I’ve been divorced over 20 years and rarely think of my ex-husband but that norovirus is top of mind. So between that and your thoughts…think I’m out (at least for now). Thanks-there is so much great stuff out there!
Oh my!! Yes I say skip it for now. I actually felt a personal connection to this book too (a character reminded me so much of a friend) and that was a positive for me, but sometimes when things hit to close to home they're a no go.
Thanks for this post. I actually DNF’ed Wild Dark Shore at 28%… I didn’t feel invested in the characters and felt distracted by the nature writing, plus I had some hang-ups with the audio narrators. I think what you said about the withholding information to turn the pages is what I was feeling. I don’t like feeling like I have to sit through 3/4 of a book only to hold out for the last bit, no matter how amazing it is.
YES! I feel exactly the same. And I even think the nature writing could have been improved by a third person POV. I'm much more willing to have a writerly distant narrator lushly describe the setting than to believe that every single character is thinking about that in the moment.
It does make me wonder even if it had just been written from Rowan's perspective and not every member of the Salt family's as well if that would have made a difference? MIGRATIONS is the only other of hers I've read (& loved) and I believe that was just from the main character's perspective, but still first person. Probably in the minority here but while I liked GOD OF THE WOODS, it just didn't totally do it for me! Some of all of this seems to come down to personal taste in the mystery genre, it seems.
Definitely the alternating POV contributed to my reaction as did the use of present tense. But I’m not sure it could have all been told in Rowan’s POV because of the ending (no spoilers here but would love to talk more in DMs!). Yes Migrations was a single perspective either first or third person close and I loved it! I think what makes GOD OF THE WOODS successful in this specific areas is that Liz Moore doesn’t plot out her novels. So she’s literally not withholding anything at the onset. So crazy!
I was wondering how Dream State would land for you. You know I loved it but I understand your criticisms of it and I do think those first 160 pages or so were why I wondered if it was for me to start. I've been having so much trouble getting into anything that's from the first person POV lately. I think that POV is tricky if the author constantly uses "I" - or maybe it's just my personal hang up haha. Thanks for the Critics at Large rec, going to check that out
Yes I’ve been struggling with first person too! And I think it’s largely my hyper awareness of it. I’m especially struggling with first person present tense which is how WDS is told. So many thoughts I need to unpack!
I saw the POV Lecture recording drop - looking forward to watching. I've only recently started to really pay attention to POV as I read and it's fascinating. I'm especially intrigued by 2nd person because "who is narrating?" often has so many answers. and thank you for the White Lotus books as props and Authors choose favorite Austen novels links. so much book goodness!
So much great stuff in here. I too have been paying attention to POV lately because of that one Substack hate piece on first person POV 😂. I’ve heard wildly different things about Victorian Psycho so really interested in your final thoughts. Also that White Lotus interview amazing.
It’s interesting because most craft books and writing teachers will tell writers to withhold information for exactly that reason - so readers keep turning pages. I’ve only read Wild Dark Shore, but I agree completely on your take. I loved the nature writing but the story left me frustrated in some ways. I wonder though, how do writers push back on this when it’s what they’re constantly hearing from the industry?
This is such a good question! First of all, I think a lot of readers DO like this feeling. Many people like books that make them feel like they MUST keep reading to find out a vital piece of information. But also, I think withholding can work brilliantly if done well which, for me, means feeling authentic to the narrative voice. Jane Austen withholds so much in EMMA, for example. But it works in large part because of how she uses POV! I think I’d just like to see authors more frequently ask “does it make sense that the character doesn’t know this?” Or even more importantly “does it make sense that a character who DOES know this isn’t thinking about it?”
I love McConaghy's writing but the craft of the novel felt very much on display, partially for the reasons that you mentioned (the amping up of suspense falsely created by withholding information). Interesting to consider it from a POV perspective!
Yes! Have you reviewed it, Kristin? I'd love to read more of your thoughts! And it's always hard to say, but I really feel if this had been written in third person (or maybe even first person but past tense) it might have worked for me.
I read Dream State and am almost finished with Wild Dark Shore (the audio is fantastic!). I agree with you about the pacing issues in DS, plus I was annoyed that the event that takes place about 160 pages in was revealed in every review/blurb I read. I expected it to be something that took place in the first chapter, not a third of the way through! I absolutely love Wild Dark Shore. The withholding piece doesn't bother me. I am enjoying the layering of perspectives (particularly the kids') and the way information is kind of weaving through them all before finally arriving to the reader.
Yes to the reveals in reviews of DS!! I'm so glad you're enjoy WDS. I'm in the minority here and while I'm not sure I would have loved it either way, I know all of my thinking about POV recently impacted my reading quite a bit.
I've been giving this some thought and I think McConaghy's writing really reflects her background (she has a masters in screenwriting). I personally love the cinematic feel of her writing and the suspense. If a reader is not inclined to like mysteries/thrillers though (her website says that in Wild Dark Shore, she "continues her love of romantic thrillers"), I could see how her books wouldn't work for you.
Side note-- I would love a post from you on mysteries/suspenses that you felt didn't do the whole "withholding information from the reader" thing! I feel like it's very tricky and masterful to accomplish.
So interesting! Yes I think part of it for me is that I’m disinclined to enjoy thrillers and mysteries! But I think your observation about her writing being quite cinematic is actually part of my POV issue. First person narration doesn’t lend itself naturally to a cinematic style—when we watch a film, we’re watching everything from the outside. I appreciate that style of writing, but in this case it added to my feeling that the narration was inauthentic. I’ll have to try to think of a list! I don’t think there’s any mystery where the author isn’t withholding information, but I don’t always feel it like I did here. Off the top of my head THE GOD OF THE WOODS comes to mind! And I think those alternating chapters were in third person close but I’ll need to go back and check!
Also those two books have basically the same cover.
Right?! I didn't notice that at all until I made this graphic, but they are so similar.
I loved that interview with Ishiguro! And thank you for the Critics at Large recommendation-- excited to give it a listen!
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! And I hope you like CaL...it's quickly becoming a favorite of mine.
Me too!
Great reviews Sara. I rarely recognize POV when I am reading but it definitely plays a huge part in the way we view and understand a story. Thanks for sharing.
Absolutely! I rarely think of it as well but now I'm starting to believe it's one of the single most important craft choices for me as a reader. I need more data points to keep considering, but I'm enjoying thinking it over!
I appreciate this discussion. Rowan and Dom were written in first person, and the kids’ chapters were third person, I think? If so, in light of this discussion, it’s interesting to me…like Rowan and Dom were choosing to withhold info. But the kids didn’t exactly since they’re written in third. (I don’t have it in front of me, so correct me if I’m misremembering!)
I read this with a friend and I remember telling her somewhere in those first 150 pages, that I was starting to feel a little annoyed/toyed with. So I can understand that feeling of manipulation, but I’m not sure I recognized it as tied to POV, which I can appreciate.
The writing kept me in it though. I loved so many themes too - that the world is dark and impermanent, and we love knowing that we will suffer loss one day, and yet we continue to always try, that playing it safe isn’t rewarding, that loving is always worth it. Sometimes it was a little too dark for me, the way such beauty is right next to such brutality and loss, but I also kept finding hope.
Some of the writing on solo parenting and grief was really well done. And also, the last few pages from Rowan’s perspective I thought were beautiful.
So ultimately, I totally see why this was one of Liz’s fav books of the year!! And I loved it as well. The fact that I keep thinking back on it is telling!
That's fair! My bigger issue with the POV is that it is in present tense. Present tense is used to create intimacy and authenticity, so it does not make sense to have characters withholding information in their thoughts if you choose to use present tense. I'm baffled by why so many authors continue to use it. I think it's manipulative because it creates a reading experience that tries to suggest there is NO crafting of the story--it's all just happening. In which case, don't withhold information. It's a cheap trick! And yes at least Fen's chapters were third person but they were the type of close third where it felt like you could sub in "I" for "she," make the verbs agree, and that's all you'd need to do to make it first. I can't remember what POV Orly's were in, but his was the most stream of consciousness so the effect was that of first person whatever pronouns were used. But it is an interesting question as to why she chose to do that...honestly it just felt to me like she wanted to differentiate the chapters a bit. I don't know...I can appreciate what you're saying about the emotions but his book was a casualty of realizing as I was reading that many of the craft choices she makes are big problems for me.
Ok I read Broken Country this week & paid closer attention to the tense because this was 1st person & present tense too. I was instantly thought uh-oh…if she does anything weird, it’s going to irk me. (Because even though I ended up loving WDS, I totally see your point and also did feel manipulated at one point early on WDS but couldn’t put my finger on why!)
Overall, Broken Country was fine. A little predictable, but like a fun vacation book. Nothing that will make me remember it forever. But, there are these few melodramatic instances where as she’s in 1st person present tense, she adds insights that are clearly her speaking with perspective from the future that I think she uses to build tension but just feel very inauthentic!! And it really bothered me and took me out of the story!
I would have noticed those parts even if you hadn’t identified this issue, but I’m not sure I would have recognized why it was bothering me.
This is so interesting, and even though, I could let it wash over me and still immerse myself in WDS, it bothered me more with Broken Country. I love that you helped me to see this.
I had some issues with Wild Dark Shore but I full acknowledge these are things I - with my own personal life experience and world view - brought to the book. I think this is an area of reviewing critically I’ve yet to fully understand. On the one hand I want to be honest about my experience reading the book, on the other I know most people probably wouldn’t have the same experience as me, and is the book working successfully in spite of how I’m interpreting it. In all honesty for me the answer was probably not quite. Nonetheless, I felt so strongly about the other stuff I took issue with that I couldn’t ignore it, even objectively. An interesting dilemma when it comes to reviewing books!!!
I just went and read your review and I completely agree with everything you said (except for me it was not a stay up late read 😂). I also find this to be a fascinating dilemma. In my case, I know my issue with feeling manipulated is something I'm particularly sensitive too BUT I genuinely think some of the POV and withholding issues were actually poor craft 😬 In your case, it's more a thematic issue that you're more sensitive to but I also think you're right that it's objectively an overused, overly simplistic idea so I'm grateful to your noticing for helping me see it too!
Yeah I think it’s much more interesting not to fall into the narrative trope where you immediately attach your female character to a man and children. She had the potential to explore a lot of interesting stuff around reasons, for example, a woman may choose not to have kids BECAUSE of climate change (regardless of whether you agree with that choice or not). But it just felt like an easy way get a romance into the book, and more drama, which on the whole did nothing for me.
PLUS those kids were so wholesome, I’m sorry but I kept comparing them to my 12 and 16 year old niece and nephew who are delightful but also smelly, annoying, obnoxious teenagers who refuse to set the table. Lucky if they agree to eat with you at all.
YES. I think that’s another reason the whole book felt manipulative. It relied on so many easy emotional beats to hit.
I have Dream State and was vacillating about reading it…Oprah and super buzzy usually result in me skipping it. Everyone raved about it and I got a large print edition which meant paperback (my preferred reading) but…I had norovirus at my wedding-what a mess! Literally and figuratively!😂It was so long ago, it was still called Cruise Ship Sickness. I’ve been divorced over 20 years and rarely think of my ex-husband but that norovirus is top of mind. So between that and your thoughts…think I’m out (at least for now). Thanks-there is so much great stuff out there!
Oh my!! Yes I say skip it for now. I actually felt a personal connection to this book too (a character reminded me so much of a friend) and that was a positive for me, but sometimes when things hit to close to home they're a no go.
Thanks for this post. I actually DNF’ed Wild Dark Shore at 28%… I didn’t feel invested in the characters and felt distracted by the nature writing, plus I had some hang-ups with the audio narrators. I think what you said about the withholding information to turn the pages is what I was feeling. I don’t like feeling like I have to sit through 3/4 of a book only to hold out for the last bit, no matter how amazing it is.
YES! I feel exactly the same. And I even think the nature writing could have been improved by a third person POV. I'm much more willing to have a writerly distant narrator lushly describe the setting than to believe that every single character is thinking about that in the moment.
It does make me wonder even if it had just been written from Rowan's perspective and not every member of the Salt family's as well if that would have made a difference? MIGRATIONS is the only other of hers I've read (& loved) and I believe that was just from the main character's perspective, but still first person. Probably in the minority here but while I liked GOD OF THE WOODS, it just didn't totally do it for me! Some of all of this seems to come down to personal taste in the mystery genre, it seems.
Definitely the alternating POV contributed to my reaction as did the use of present tense. But I’m not sure it could have all been told in Rowan’s POV because of the ending (no spoilers here but would love to talk more in DMs!). Yes Migrations was a single perspective either first or third person close and I loved it! I think what makes GOD OF THE WOODS successful in this specific areas is that Liz Moore doesn’t plot out her novels. So she’s literally not withholding anything at the onset. So crazy!
How does she not plot out her books?! Especially with a mystery, that's mindblowing 🤯
I have no idea!
I was wondering how Dream State would land for you. You know I loved it but I understand your criticisms of it and I do think those first 160 pages or so were why I wondered if it was for me to start. I've been having so much trouble getting into anything that's from the first person POV lately. I think that POV is tricky if the author constantly uses "I" - or maybe it's just my personal hang up haha. Thanks for the Critics at Large rec, going to check that out
Yes I’ve been struggling with first person too! And I think it’s largely my hyper awareness of it. I’m especially struggling with first person present tense which is how WDS is told. So many thoughts I need to unpack!
I saw the POV Lecture recording drop - looking forward to watching. I've only recently started to really pay attention to POV as I read and it's fascinating. I'm especially intrigued by 2nd person because "who is narrating?" often has so many answers. and thank you for the White Lotus books as props and Authors choose favorite Austen novels links. so much book goodness!
Yes! It’s so interesting to think about! And I agree—this week’s links are particularly good!
I just finished Wild Dark Shore. Plot twists were unexpected!
So much great stuff in here. I too have been paying attention to POV lately because of that one Substack hate piece on first person POV 😂. I’ve heard wildly different things about Victorian Psycho so really interested in your final thoughts. Also that White Lotus interview amazing.
Haha yes. He got us all thinking!!
It’s interesting because most craft books and writing teachers will tell writers to withhold information for exactly that reason - so readers keep turning pages. I’ve only read Wild Dark Shore, but I agree completely on your take. I loved the nature writing but the story left me frustrated in some ways. I wonder though, how do writers push back on this when it’s what they’re constantly hearing from the industry?
This is such a good question! First of all, I think a lot of readers DO like this feeling. Many people like books that make them feel like they MUST keep reading to find out a vital piece of information. But also, I think withholding can work brilliantly if done well which, for me, means feeling authentic to the narrative voice. Jane Austen withholds so much in EMMA, for example. But it works in large part because of how she uses POV! I think I’d just like to see authors more frequently ask “does it make sense that the character doesn’t know this?” Or even more importantly “does it make sense that a character who DOES know this isn’t thinking about it?”
I love McConaghy's writing but the craft of the novel felt very much on display, partially for the reasons that you mentioned (the amping up of suspense falsely created by withholding information). Interesting to consider it from a POV perspective!
Yes! Have you reviewed it, Kristin? I'd love to read more of your thoughts! And it's always hard to say, but I really feel if this had been written in third person (or maybe even first person but past tense) it might have worked for me.